http://www.patreon.com/ScottJund SHIT I FORGOT THANKS FARABEE JEFF AND SILVER
So glad I stumbled upon this because I said as soon as pop got nerfed that I feel DS should be no more than 45 seconds. If it has to be 60 then it needs to be a thing where once someone is hooked the other survivors ds goes away because I never get DSed while tunneling it's always I hook one, hook another and then the original Survivor comes to unhook like wtf is a killer supposed to do...
Scott so killer sided. It takes no skill to play killer. Only perks. It takes skill to play survivor
you are assuming that the survivors are playing 100% perfectly which negates almost every argument you make. you assume there is a strong loop nearby to "start the loop" again after a DS. you also assume DS works every time. it doesn't. it runs out very fast and slugging also counters it. if you are going against 4 DS's, you will probably get hit with it 2 times at MOST. you also mention how DS can buy you 20 seconds of extra chase time(you assume the killer will chase) and pop only regresses a gen 20 secs and takes time to do that well guess what? if you keep kicking gens, you can regress progress by over a minute in most matches. again DS only works once and doesnt always buy the amount of time you assume. i just feel your entire arguement is all over the place and you dont take multiple factors into play.
I honestly don’t even think ds is that strong. I play both survivor and killer and as killer it barely bothers me and as survivor I never run it cause I never get to use it. It’s more annoying than it is strong. The problem appears, like you said, when the whole team has it, or when the survivors also have unbreakable. Then it’s a problem for sure.
Just don't tunnel its that easy u don't have to worry about it plus you get ur pop and than chase whoever's near you not the person that literally just got hooked
It seems they nerfed pop again with the 2% chance of being in oni's bloodweb.
I don't like your fix to DS. If the timer doesn't go away in chase then the unhooked survivor is just gonna try and find the killer and loop them for as long as possible with no consequences. I think DS as is.
Well, if I here to guess why they left Ds behind the nerf hammer, would probably be because they are saving it for the next set of nerfs, in the blight mid chapter, when they nerf hex undying, they will nerf ds too to try to calm some of the people, and not seem like they are two survivors biased.
Survivors seem to think that killer perks should be equal to survivor perks but always forget that there is one killer and 4 survivors
Personally, I don’t think DS is broken in Solo q. However, I agree to this when it’s used at all in an swf.
I feel like survivors under-value DS from bad experiences, like in raw value DS is an instaheal, you go from downed, about to be hooked to chasing the killer for another 30-40 seconds. but people feel that and think "oh it only gets me 40 seconds before I go down again" when otherwise that would be either 40 seconds on a hook or 40 seconds another person is still on a generator not going for a hook save
also 10:32 a short while they added oblivious on stuff and deep wound was busted and they changed deep wound to be as long as you aren't sprinting instead of being affected by terror radius or considered in a chase. Considering how hard it can be to "start" a chase and losing chase mid chase because you didn't have LoS for 5 seconds while doing a loop I feel like they'd want to update the chase mechanics if they make this change
DS has way too massive of a stun. It lasts way too long and its obsurdly annoying.
People forget about DS being used for tunneling killers, and if you don’t tunnel then you don’t have pressure on the injured guy, down him and then chase the other guy who saved to be able to get 2 downs then pick up the unhooked by that time the downed survivor used his unbreakable or there was another guy who picked him up 50/50 and I always win my games on 50/50, that’s my opinion on the situation about DS
They should limit pop to 4 uses, and change ds to give you a 25% bonus progression on your wiggle timer instead of letting you go... Now they are equal
XD on top of that you HAVE TO hook a survivor to be even able to use pop. so if you are at a 3 gen situation at the end u might even end up losing a gen because survivors are so spread up and u dont even get to hook another survivor to even use pop to regress one of these gens. mostly u have to use pop when the gen isn't even above 15 % and then u need it cause the gen is at like 60 %, but u dont get a hook. that's why i also think that there aren't any gen regression perks besides pop or ruin and ruin is trash due to the fact of undying getting nerfed. good survivors will always look out for ruins to cleanse and for pops u need hooks which can be pretty hard especially if every survivor has DS and boi i get 4x DS in like 90 % of my matches. killers even HAVE TO slug mostly because they are afraid to get constantly DS'd not gaining any hooks whatsoever.
DS is fine the way it is. Pop was also, I'm not to sure why they are changing it though. Now, i'm not sure why you're comparing Pop (1perk) to DS and Unbrekable (2perks). I do understand its a nasty combo to go against, but if you are comparing the most broken combo on both end you should be comparing which is stronger: DS Unbreakable / Ruin Undying. That is the meta at the moment on both side and before they break one of this combo, both have to go IMO.
The ds Change youre proposing is literally perfect. It would take the worry off of getting decisived constantly for just downing people. And 30 seconds is incredibly lenient too. 60 seconds in this game is an eternity. I feel like the devs barely understand their game
Honestly thought you were just biased since most videos are defending survivors like you said, but now I'm pretty happy with your ideas and will think about your other ideas with a more open mind
Dude this community needs to change there's huge channels from both sides that promote toxicity way to much and it needs to change
Y’all hate ds because you’ve been so entitled to playing killer however you feel like
Pop goes the weasel doesn't even save 20 seconds of time. It saves (20/number of active survivors) seconds of time. By generous estimate and stats, this is appx. 7 - 9 seconds. This means that DS, by math alone, saves over 15x as much time as pop does. This is of course assuming that you can reach a generator and that generator has more than 25% progress (as kicking a gen with 12% progression is roughly half as useful). This also assumes that the survivors have suffered significant brain damage during their childhoods. In reality DS likely saves well over 25x as much time as pop.
Multiply by 4 for all the potential DS's that can happen and then / by 5.5 for the approximate amount of pops which happen in a match, and you'll find that a single DS is at the very least saves 13x as much time as pop does over the duration of a game. This means that a team which runs DS is roughly 38x stronger than a killer running pop (factoring in for the 25% of matches where survivors don't get a chance to DS).
So that's why Behavior nerfed pop and not DS (forehead slap).
I mean currently Freddy is the best pop user cuz he can teleport to a gen
My only problem with the chase part stopping the timer on a 30 second ds is that all you'd need to do is down them, go after someone else for 30 seconds unless it's across map, then comeback, and off the person that has no counter play other than don't go down without unbreakable 5head
Pyramid head be like: you choose the wrong house fool
I would suggest to give you a borrowed time effect if you get unhooked for 60 seconds
With DS you get your regular 5 second stun, which gives you 20 meters of distance. 115 killers move 0.6m/s faster than survivors, so 20/.6 = 33.33. That means that without using pallets, windows, or sprint perks, it takes at least 38 seconds for killer to catch up after DS, making it completely unfavorable to chase them. Basically, they either waste a full minute of your time by making you chase and slug them, or waste a full minute of your time by making you chase them, eat DS, and chase them again. Assuming they have Unbreakable as well, your best course of action is to eat the DS and let them get away, still wasting your time.
What’s with the big debate about ds? it doesn’t help tunneling at all if anything it makes the killer want you more it started out as anti tunnel but it hasn’t been that for a long time and it never will again tunneling is just a part of the game you deal with bt and toolboxes and flashlights are the best defense against tunneling because you can take a hit and get away from the killer or sabo the hook and get the wiggle or flashlight save ( I have 160 hours in the game which is chump change and half of it’s in the past two weeks but I’ve played from rank 20 killers to rank 1 and that’s just how it is in my experience)
Ds with 60s to use it is stupid oh yeah i want to let the killer down me to just so i can miss the skill check ,the 1 use i get but 60s to use is is stupid
I usually agree with Scott but this one I do not and have many counter arguments to his comparisons. I'd love to debate with him because I feel like he would actually have an open discussion where he does not dismiss everything
And also not to mention pallets and Flashlights like in a perfect world for a survivor you get downed in a pallet you get picked up you Ds them then you slam the pallet down THEN you flashlight and then they have to break the pallet it’s a lot of time and also you can hook someone else then find a person with ds and still get ds even after hooking someone else but also killer animations like Hags she physically looks down so you have to rely on scratch marks to see where they went and scratch marks are iffy at times when it’s comes to tracking. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk
I feel like ds should be removed as a perk and made into a normal mechanic, but nerfed. I feel like if you're chased off hook, you should have your ds timer paused. The stun should be 3 sec. And lastly, the ds timer should be changed to 40 sec when not being chased. Change Laurie so her third perk is different. Obviously this is messy, and I'm also not a game dev so I don't get the complexities of things, but I do feel ds needs a buff and a nerf. You get punished for being good at chase. As for the comparison of pop and ds... The idea that pop is equal to or even better than ds is clowny.
Ds should also deactivate if survivors go into lockers, ds and OoO is the most op perks and the devs nerf killer perks instead of these...
New perk “decisive decisive strike” when a survivor uses decisive you stab them as they stab you and they’re inflicted with deep wound.
I literally just unlocked pop
like, you cant just compare ds with pop
ds is much of a powerful perk than pop
Ds will not be changed because too many killers wanna proxy hooks and too lazy to chase healthy survivors
I’m more upset that they almost always nerf killers and never nerf survivors. Constantly they clearly don’t care about anything but survivors. Just devs, go make a survivor only game.
I think in your pop argument you were a little naive in not accounting for the fact that if used correctly, the killer will be interrupting generally a single survivor on a gen, taking off 25% of its progress, then beginning its regression and chasing the survivor, aside from that though, fantastic video. Your proposed changes to DS are amazing and I would love to see them implemented.
You saying your 20 seconds of value of pop goes down based on just moving to the generator. And how is that value going away when you set up your 3 gen at that point most killers wont want to commit a chase when they have that. Theyll just play campy at those 3 gens until they can keep getting chain hooks until the game is over. Pop is the reason 3 gen camping is awful. There are many of those who just need one down to just keep the chain of trading others on hooks and rinse and repeat
2 survivors can finish a gen from 0 in 46 seconds taking a DS against decent team loses you a gen if you chase that survivor
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Stop it right there Scott. 8:50 So you’re gunna go into detail about the amount of time it takes for you to go to a gen and kick it with the seconds and everything and not talk about what is actually happening in the in game scenario? Cool. Here’s the point, yes the killer hooks someone, and you get saved. NORMALLY, you’d want to heal when you’ve just got off the hook. That would be good! If the killer doesn’t immediately return to the hook, which they always do, because instead of finding someone new to chase, you go after the person on the hook. So it’s 100% not 60 seconds of do whatever you want. It’s like 20 seconds of go find a gen. Because on the once in a blue moon a killer doesn’t just immediately down you after a hook, you heal and run to find a gen on the map if there’s one near. Which is even less time. So don’t go out here saying it’s a whole ass 60 seconds of pure bliss, skipping around doing whatever. Because it’s 100% not. Shows one side of argument and then calls for the nerf. Hell no. I’m fine with like a 10 second decrease, but then it’s too easy for a killer to go back to a hook, slug and then get a free hit from the save, then go back an all of the sudden your timers out because you decided the perk was too strong at doing it’s job.
your argument that the survivors get 40 seconds per ds isn’t always true because your assuming it’s an m1 killer who would just mindlessly walk towards the survivor. what if it’s a nurse, or spirit, or huntress, or billy
Ds doesn’t need a nerd cuz it just shows that I tunnel if it stuns you
then if pop is so much worse than ds, why even compare them
I’m a survivor main and Scott has good ideas for ds, I think a decrease from 60 seconds to 30 seconds but the timer won’t go down if in a chase with a killer. What annoys me is when killers get mad and say all survivor perks should get nerfed but they don’t give any good reasoning like Scott did
One minute is an eternity in this game. You can do a lot of non-tunneling pressure as the killer and still get hit by DS.
Getting in lockers, working on generators, healing others, etc. should also cancel the active time on DS. If you're performing other actions to purposefully get hit/grabbed/focused by the killer.. the killer is not tunneling you.
Ds should give the killer a skillcheck instead. If they fail, they drop the survivor.
I wish I could just play this game and remove perks and add ons from the equation entirely.
Glad I don’t play this game anymore.
Yesterday I missed my DS but when got unhooked it still activated Idk if it was a glitch or a buff
While I do agree that Pop didn’t needed a nerf I do not think DS needs a nerf. I know a lot of killers hate it and say it is op but it is there to stop tunneling. If they nerf it even slightly there would not be any way to counter tunneling, specifically in solo q. I think what DOES need to happen is they should buff perks like Off the Record. Off the Record has the potential to massively be a great anti-tunneling perk. It already silences you and stops the killer from seeing your aura but if they added that you do not leave blood and scratch marks are lighter while its active this can be a truly great anti tunneling. They need to buff those other perks. Also just introducing more anti tunneling perks. I don’t know I just think DS is a harder perk to balance than Pop
I get what you are saying about DS and Pop but I do think there is the differences in that DS can only be used once a match and that is if you hit your skill check. If you fail it the perk wont be used again and you failed. So DS is not a guarantee. I don’t know I honestly did not think either perk needed a nerf. Both are fine in their current state.
I feel like ds is fine. You just have to slug the person and do something else. Chances are theres a gen to kick or another survivor to chase. I feel like maybe a slight time nerf if anyhting
Can I just break down how "just eat the DS" to such a forehead response. for starters you never want to eat a DS unless you're in good standings when it comes to gens. I'm talkin like three hooks and there's still five gens. And if you're not going against good. A survivor who knows how to loop well DS can be absolutely crippling. Because now you have to leave them alone due to how much time. So you are gambling with potentially learning nothing beyond the ability to hook them. Even worse you couldother survivors might gen rush from seeing you tunnel.
If you have Pop you need to earn it to use it while with DS you just have to be bad to use it
I am only here because of the Dark Souls music.
Change DS to 30 sec and pause time when in a chase after being unhooked just an Idea
Pop Goes the Weasel rewards the killer with 20 little seconds of slowdown at best if they are hooking people, aka doing well.
DS rewards survivors with an entire minute of safety, possibly more if they combine it with Unbreakable, for the simple act of being unhooked. In fact, if you go down again within just one minute, doesn't that actually mean you're kinda bad at chase? So you get rewarded for playing badly. Fuck DS
scotts change to ds would make it exactly how it should be
We also have repressed alliance now, wow devs thanks for this perk that can completely disable something that you have to earn, looks like I won’t be playing this game for a while
Honestly i would like the idea of DS becoming an anti tunneling perk and the whole 30 second timer but pauses if your being chased is good i personally play both sides but more recently survivor and oh man is it annoying seeing just DS basically break the game open for survivors sometimes because of one perk i could care less about pop pop is perfectly fine in my opinion especially after all the info in this video sure the nerf is there but meh just change DS
You're not simply wasting 40 seconds of the killer's time, you're giving 40 seconds of free time to your 3 teammates, so each single use of DS gives 160 seconds (almost 3 minutes!!!) of free time.
How about they let you use ds 2 times. And when u use pop, all gen regress to 0.
11:50 I don’t think that should be the case, if you’re healing yourself you have like 3 seconds of ds use (in case of using a septic/anti-hemorrhage) and also doing a gen for a few seconds (like if the killer kicks a gen whil you’re looping it and then you tap the gen)
Don't even forget that survivors have 4x the time a killer has, so losing 40 seconds as a killer as the survivor loops you really means you lost 120 (the amount of time lost x the rest of the survivors) seconds of time.
Ds should deactivate after healing to full health after an unhook
Just eat the DS 4Head
People use DS because 85% of survivors perks are bad and killers tunnel /camp, better NERF tunnelers and campers and players will stop using DS...
Agree anti-tunnel cement. I would add along with chase a spinechill like cone if your are being looked at it delays the timer. This would prevent those outliers from abusing their ability as well as provide limited utility.
The issue Scott was the justification given for the nerf that Pop received. The Devs gave us the reasons why they made this choice. We as a community simply looked at that explanation and said "huh that's weird. Sounds like an argument for why other perks should also see a time reduction nerf. Strange you guys didn't see that."
THEY invited the comparison.
Why not make DS to where it lasts for 60 seconds but goes away the moment you touch a gen?
This game is very much survivor sided.
No doubt about it.
Luckly, dbd is structurally a casual game
I think the issue is that both, Pop AND DStrike have, reward the players too much for playing well. DStrike becomes too much when Survivors are already capable of kiting the Killer for more than a minute, actually manage their time efficiently and know how to abuse lockers. And when it comes up to Pop, you also have to consider that there is one person hooked while at least one other Survivor will probably attempt to unhook them within the next 20 seconds. Meaning, Pop ain't just the 25% degression on a gen, but due to how it actually triggers, you're also getting some time efficiency due to the pressure you're already having for two Survivors being occupied/distracted from gens. And this is not even considering that anyone else besides the hooked Survivor might be injured. And saying that Pop doesn't save as much time as you're having to head for a generator is not really a good point considering you're probably heading to a gen once hooking someone anyway. If Pop is involved or not, doesn't really matter most of the time. At least when it doesn't come up to spotting an easy down in a dead zone due to BBQ. Also I want to remind everyone that Killers are NOT forced to grab Survivors from gens, I don't even know who started this hoax. Killers can choose to grab or down a Survivor from a gen despite them currently repairing it. You just gotta lunge at them instead (while not literally standing infront of them ofcourse). The only scenario in which DStrike is basically forcing the Killer into a bad situation, is when lockers are involved. Ofcourse Survivors could (and will) invest a 2nd Perk Slot to run Unbreakable aswell, which obviously most people do as the synergy is just very good. But I also feel like many people don't even consider to chip on Unbreakable. Either the Survivor has to use their Perk, or someone else has to head over to pick them up. Either way, what are we doing in said minimum of 20 seconds when the Survivor is slugged and recovers with Unbreakable? Ofcourse the Survivor might save some time with Unbreakable, don't get me wrong, I'm understanding that you need more time to get a down before they can recover. But is Unbreakable actually saving sooo much more time than other certain good Perks would?. Ofcourse, when we're going super nuclear, we'll probably expect to see DS/Unbreakable/BT/Exhaustion Perk. But there are still lots of other pretty good time efficient Perks aswell. Spine Chill, Iron Will, Deliverance (which is especially a nice synergy with DS/Unbreakable), Distortion to check Undying, Bond to force aggro being split, getting to heals faster and potentially co-op centric positoned gens to make the Killer's patrol route bigger... The synergy for DStrike und Unbreakable is there. Definetly. But I also feel like many people don't even consider to just leave Survivors slugged despite Unbreakable. Also you're estimating that every single Survivor gets to use their DS on you consistently. It's literally the same as saying "12 pops" as you're estimating the best case/worst case scenario. Yes, DStrike is extremely popular, but the odds that you're getting DS'd four times in a game, is very very unlikely when you're not unlucky and continuously run into the Survivors that just got unhooked. But when you're not attempting to tunnel someone in particular, at least one out of four DStrikes wouldn't even work to begin with. At least in my experiences. And then it also depends on the current positioning, the Killer being played etc..
Both Perks are extremely strong and in the meta of both roles for obvious reasons. Both can save even more time when the player behind the screen is good. The scaling of said Perks with the players actuall skill is rather insane. Having a reward in form of a stall, for already doing your job and applying pressure, IS strong. And the circumstances shouldn't be underestimated. When the Killer has enough pressure in addition to Pop, it can be really hard to make a comeback, especially without SWF.
However I agree that DStrike should be nerfed/changed. At least remove the enforced trigger on lockers, that's the one thing I definetly wouldn't mind to see as it's just obnoxious to play against. The synergy with Unbreakable...Well maaaybe there could be something done aswell. But I also think that many players are underestimating Pop, despite it being well known meta, and don't see how strong it can be in addition to a well played Killer. Gettind DS'd once definetly doesn't outvalue Pop in general. If you don't need much too long for your chases that is. But that's also what I meant when I said that it rewards good players too much.
Edit : When you're changing DS' duration to 30 and make the timer freeze during chases, will simply cause Killers to moonwalk it like they did on Legion with the old mending. DS should be nerfed, but it shouldn't be rendered unplayable because Killers can counter it too easily.
they should add exhaustion and or mangled effect to a survivor for escaping the killers grasp as a core mechanic
Disliked because misleading title.
Sorry Scott, but come the fuck on
I hate how killers get mad when player have dstrike but they didn’t use it
Damn and you didnt even mention that buying time as a survivor is exponentially better by 2 or 3 times
A good idea for a DS nerf would be to make a regular skillcheck where if you pass it gives a shorter stun 3 and for the 5 second stun requires a great skillcheck.
DS should just be like borrowed time if the killers terror radius is near the hooked survivor then DS should activate or at the very least just make it so that the killer has to be at a certain distance from the hooked survivor for the perk to actually take affect that way killers don’t camp and tunnel the hooked survivor and will be forced to look for other survivors
How can you get DS’d if you’re not tunnelling? (Genuine question)
i don’t think decisive or pop should be nerfed most of he’s arguments here are for above average or pro players, they keep nerfing everything and it just makes casual games very shitty, at least as survivor it’s hard to live when you keep getting weak links in games aka casual players. the decisions they make because of sweaty players affect the casual or underneath average players
When it comes to DS I agree it needs a change to be more of a counter to tunneling, because at the moment all DS does is not counter tunneling in reality all it does is make the killer want to push your shit in for wasting their time with the DS stun.
I wished Dead Hard got nerfed. No collision boxes plus i-frames is just straight up broken. Made even worse with the Killer's FOV
Pop should be at 60 seconds but if you don't kick the gen in 45 seconds the last 15 seconds are only a 15% regression and decisive should work the same with the stun time (after 30 seconds the stun goes down to 3 seconds instead of 5) change my mind
Honestly I'd be fine with DS only working on death hook
Kinda makes sense in roleplay aspect too
DS is not a "slowdown perk", it's a screw-over perk. The killer does something, and just by HAVING this perk, you not only negate what he did, but screw him over for the next 15 seconds (and by NOT having it you probably screw him over for longer as he's forced to leave you on the ground for a minute). Survivors don't even need "slowdown perks" or perks that change the game's speed at all (including stuff like Prove Thyself) in my opinion. Survivor perks should be focused on survival, i.e. evasion or teamwork or healing -- NOT screwing over the killer.
As it is, DS only exists as a screw-over perk, and even if it DIDN'T synergize with stuff like Borrowed Time, Deliverance, etc, it would still be toxic and out of place by its very nature alone. The fact that people don't understand this is mindboggling. The game simply shouldn't be like this.
I literally don’t understand the animosity in the community towards Scott Jund?? Like he’s actually giving constructive criticism and analysis on DS and it’s effects on the game as a whole.
Ds should be nerfed to 45 or 40 sec
The devs' attempt to make people stop tunneling only led to survivors forcing killers into situations where they need to tunnel or else they'll lose.
As a survivor main I agree with your fix 100%. The 30 second timer that doesn't go down when your being chased. Love it!
6:47 I love how the main counterplay people make for DS is to do the thing the perk was supposed to prevent
just make ds deactivate if you touch a objective (totem,gen,chest,etc) , and i like the 30sec and stops going down when in chase so lets add that
DS should not activate after gens are completed. EZ fix.
if ur eating all 4 ds u need to change up ur play style because ur obviously tunneling whether i think it or not, i eat maybe 1 a game. u should never eat 4 ds unless 2+ are forced
to use pop you need to earn it.
to use ds you just play dumb or let killers down you
Maybe they could change DS to only work when the survivor is on death hook. Have it only be usable if a survivor is unhooked and the killer downs them and grabs them again within like thirty seconds or so (instead of the full minute that it gets right now). Having DS only usable on death hook may also help killers predict when it will happen better.
Just my five cents, take it how you will.
The problem with the Dstrike theory “1 vs 4” is you’re assuming that the four man team is coordinated/survivor friends constantly. This isn’t the case. The amount of potatoes vs a well coordinated team is pretty far and wide.
I am a survivor main and agree with u but i think they should nerf it to 45 sec
Pop should get 200% regression
Problem is DS still has an effect even when none of the survivors has it. As soon as there is an obsession you have to instantly assume that anyone could have it which is just broken as fuck. How you gonna nerf a perk thats pretty balanced and not nerf a perk that is in effect even if no one uses it